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Admin complaint on cradboard

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Justin

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Your master account: Justin2306
Your character: Clayton Samuels
Their name(s): Santos Arechavaleta
Offense: Taking excessive administrative decision without rational reasoning.
Re-count of situation/description: Alright, I was involved in a crash mid-chase. Whilst RPing injuries etc, Yass approached my car and decided to smash my window, he presumed that the window would break cleanly and conveniently. Yass then proceeded to point a gun at my neck, with no knowledge of my possessing of a gun. Instinctively and hopefully understandably, given the nature of my character, I took the decision to react swiftly and impulsively, attempting to kick the door open, not necessarily, if i can remember correctly, to injure Yass in any way, simply to escape. The word RP , in my opinion, should not always be described as what would NORMALLY happen, but in addition, the (remote) possibility of an alternative reaction/outcome. However I feel that this is too often, overlooked when it comes to discerning a situation from RP and unRP. My character reaction in itself could be regarded as UnRP fear, sure, ultimately it will me always be subjective, but despite my many attempts to justify myself, this was completely disregarded and neglected by cradboard, as he decided that this PARTICULAR situation merited an 8 hour ban. I fully understand the concept of admin discretion, however i would think that this should be done relative to the situation, and to SOME extent, not converting a standard a-jail into a ban. This I strongly feel to be tremendously excessive.cardboard proceeded to tell me how this SPECIFIC turn of events should in fact be treated as PG and not Non RP fear, despite what is label on the ban itself. Which until now I am really failing miserably to understand. I think this was an immensely rash decision, especially as this was a trial admin. I'd like cradboard to tell me how and why this situation warranted a ban, and not an a-jail. And why he feels that he should increase the punishment to such an outrageous extent when it should be no different to an a-jail. I've never posted an admin complaint, and my ban was merely 8 hours, so i think it goes without saying that this wasn't posted out of rage, nor was this complaint posted for the sake of a complaint. I only want a thorough explanation from cradboard, not other admins, as this will only complicate the situation far more than it needs to be. To make this more clear, i'd like cradboard to tell me specifically and coherently, why he felt the necessity to punish me for longer than what I or any player would be accustomed to, and why this situation would be any different from that of an a-jail for not RPing fear.
Witnesses: N/A
Evidence: The ban itself
Additional information: I'd appreciate it greatly if cradboard takes his time to read this complaint and answer thoroughly, ensuring that a valid and reasonable explanation is provided.
Other Comments: I'd like to keep this complaint short and brief, thus i'd like a response from cradboard exclusively, if at all possible. Other admins posting in this complaint with a one-sided argument will only elongate the work required for the handling administrator.
 

cradboard

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Hello! I'm sorry that you feel this way about my decision, but I can assure you that I will explain everything. I'm going to take pieces of your complaint and reply to them one by one.

However I feel that this is too often, overlooked when it comes to discerning a situation from RP and unRP. My character reaction in itself could be regarded as UnRP fear, sure, ultimately it will me always be subjective

Well I'm glad we agree here, your RP was breaking the rules. You, simply, chose not to RP fear as a gun was pressed against your neck.

but despite my many attempts to justify myself, this was completely disregarded and overlooked by cradboard, as he decided that this PARTICULAR situation merited an 8 hour ban.

Yes, as our protocols state Powergame is met with an 8 hour ban. I overlooked the situation and I saw that since you avoided arrest by not RPing fear, it caused a turn of events resulting in your death. In my opinion you wanted your character to die, but because the officer killed you, you were able to avoid CK.

I fully understand the concept of admin discretion, however i would think that this should be done relative to the situation, and to SOME extent, not converting a standard a-jail into a ban.

There is no standard for not RPing fear, actually our protocols don't even have it listed. Allow me to explain in one of your other quotes.

This I strongly feel to be tremendously excessive.cardboard proceeded to tell me how this SPECIFIC turn of events should in fact be treated as PG and not Non RP fear, despite what is label on the ban itself. Which until now I am really failing miserably to understand.

Well there you go, you don't understand. This is the major communication issue here. Non-RP fear is a form of Powergaming, as you force others to continue RP and ignore their actions. Which is exactly what you did, to explain why the label was Non-RP Fear was solely because it gives you a clear and exact reason why you were banned. Also, if you believe this should be treated as PG, then as well as the current ban, it would also be 8 hours. Basically, they are the same exact thing with a different name but similar purpose.

I think this was an immensely rash decision, especially as this was a trial admin. I'd like cradboard to tell me how and why this situation warranted a ban, and not an a-jail. And why he feels that he should increase the punishment to such an outrageous extent when it should be no different to an a-jail.

Simply stated above, you powergamed in the form of not RPing fear.

I've never posted an admin complaint, and my ban was merely 8 hours, so i think it goes without saying that this wasn't posted out of rage, nor was this complaint posted for the sake of a complaint. I only want a thorough explanation from cradboard, not other admins, as this will only complicate the situation far more than it needs to be. To make this more clear, i'd like cradboard to tell me specifically and coherently, why he felt the necessity to punish me for longer than what I or any player would be accustomed to, and why this situation would be any different from that of an a-jail for not RPing fear.

I believe I gave a clear explanation in teamspeak but I guess that was not enough. I also can understand if you're upset, I personally believe when people frown upon rage it's because the two sides are not in person. Stating they act immaturely, which is not always the case. In this case, it is not, you are simply upset and I understand. Finally, again it was Powergame just in the form of not RPing your fear that should have been fully roleplayed.

Witnesses: N/A

Yass and Lemonpower were both witnesses, the whole way through.

Additional information: I'd appreciate it greatly if cradboard takes his time to read this complaint and answer thoroughly, ensuring that a valid and reasonable explanation is provided.

I've gone through as requested.

Other Comments: I'd like to keep this complaint short and brief, thus i'd like a response from cradboard exclusively, if at all possible. Other admins posting in this complaint with a one-sided argument will only elongate the work required for the handling administrator.

I've never had a complaint and I'm actually unsure who needs to be involved, I welcome management and witnesses to add their opinion as I assume they are normally welcomed in administrator complaints.
 

cradboard

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A statement from Lemonpower:

LemonPower said:
http://redcountyrp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=902&t=105329

Someone needs a reason to run from the police, majority of these pursuits are caused because people keep firearms within their vehicles. Since there is no way for us to confirm that we approach each of these situation with a worst case scenario approach.

The second present yourself as a hostile, non-compliant suspect you're not doing a whole lot in the way of convincing us otherwise. There are a lot of variables leading up to the shooting, the primary one is that you are attempting to disappear from our sights by ducking into your vehicle, reaching towards unknown compartments. You did this whilst a firearm was held against your neck, you had received multiple verbal orders to place your hands on the dashboard to which you refused. The second your hands disappear you are slipping the situation out of our control as you may or may not reappear your hands with a firearm.

In this situation we, or rather Raphael Perez, preemptively shot and killed you as is justifiable in this situation. Though you believed we had other options, the second you have a firearm held against your head two things will happen. You either submit, or you forfeit your life. The idea you presented isn't a realistic option for us. You wanted us to retreat, or grab tasers. The only problem with this is that when you reach down into your vehicle after specifically being told not to we're not going to wait to see if you pull out a bouquet of flowers, or a firearm.
 

Justin

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Thank you for such a prompt response. Having read your response thoroughly, i have decided to reciprocate your method of response. However I have taken the liberty to respond to ALL of your reply, not only the parts where I believe I can justify.

"Well I'm glad we agree here, your RP was breaking the rules. You, simply, chose not to RP fear as a gun was pressed against your neck."

As i stated in my original post, RP is not always what you would regard as normal, but also considering the remote possibilities of an alternative reaction. PG would be regarded as something which could not be humanly possible. Since this was your justification for my excessive ban, do YOU personally believe that what I did was IMPOSSIBLE, are you telling me that the probability of this happening is 0?

"Yes, as our protocols state Powergame is met with an 8 hour ban. I overlooked the situation and I saw that since you avoided arrest by not RPing fear, it caused a turn of events resulting in your death. In my opinion you wanted your character to die, but because the officer killed you, you were able to avoid CK."

Right, and remind me again the reason for my 8 hour ban? In my personal opinion it seems that you avoided banning me for the reason "PG" because you were very knowledgeable of the fact that my wrong-doings were in fact "Non RP-fear." The officer had no inclination to kill me, he had several options to handle the situation and he chose the easiest one. You are in effect, telling me that I foresaw his actions, which is flat out ridiculous and unreasonable. The ban reason was "Non RP fear" so why are you handing me a punishment for a different offense? I can't see the logic in this. Explain it to me please.

"There is no standard for not RPing fear, actually our protocols don't even have it listed. Allow me to explain in one of your other quotes."

If that was the case, despite there being no feasible way for me to obtain this information, why did you ban me for Non RP fear? And why are players so rarely, if ever banned for 8 hours for this reason?

"Well there you go, you don't understand. This is the major communication issue here. Non-RP fear is a form of Powergaming, as you force others to continue RP and ignore their actions. Which is exactly what you did, to explain why the label was Non-RP Fear was solely because it gives you a clear and exact reason why you were banned. Also, if you believe this should be treated as PG, then as well as the current ban, it would also be 8 hours. Basically, they are the same exact thing with a different name but similar purpose."

Alright, i don't feel this to be a reasonable justification, and here's why. Powergaming is regarded as something that wouldn't be humanly possible, non RP fear is something which COULD happen, but somewhat unlikely, hence the "Non RP fear" punishment. I didn't create the rules, but I think it's logical to draw the inference that these two punishments are each given an individual punishment length, because they are of different severity.

"Simply stated above, you powergamed in the form of not RPing fear."

Explain why the punishment traditionally, has two different punishment times, please, since they are "the exact same thing."

"I believe I gave a clear explanation in teamspeak but I guess that was not enough. I also can understand if you're upset, I personally believe when people frown upon rage it's because the two sides are not in person. Stating they act immaturely, which is not always the case. In this case, it is not, you are simply upset and I understand. Finally, again it was Powergame just in the form of not RPing your fear that should have been fully roleplayed."

Thanks for your input here, but I didn't need you to explain to me why I posted the complaint, I was simply stating that the complaint wasn't posted out of rage or spite!(The hostile tone isn't intended.)

"Yass and Lemonpower were both witnesses, the whole way through."

That's fantastic, add them to the witnesses if you wish.

"I've never had a complaint and I'm actually unsure who needs to be involved, I welcome management and witnesses to add their opinion as I assume they are normally welcomed in administrator complaints."

Of course they are, I simply chose to have some consideration for the handling administrators as I do not intend for a long and tedious thread. As for the witnesses,

"NO ONE besides the COMPLAINER and ADMINISTRATORS are allowed to post in complaints under ANY circumstances. Even if you have useful evidence, give it to the complainer to post. There are NO exceptions to this rule and you WILL be forum banned for 1 week upon breaking it."

I presume that your welcoming of any witnesses to post in this complaint is exempt from rule then? I just thought that "NO exceptions" and "under ANY circumstances" referred to the prohibition of any community members, apart from admins, to post here.

EDIT: Excuse me if I have disregarded Lemonpower's quoted response completely, I did say i was only interested in your reply cradboard, as this complaint is about you, and not anyone else. His facetiousness is also unnecessary in this point of time.
 

Jboi

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Justin. said:
"NO ONE besides the COMPLAINER and ADMINISTRATORS are allowed to post in complaints under ANY circumstances. Even if you have useful evidence, give it to the complainer to post. There are NO exceptions to this rule and you WILL be forum banned for 1 week upon breaking it."

I presume that your welcoming of any witnesses to post in this complaint is exempt from rule then? I just thought that "NO exceptions" and "under ANY circumstances" referred to the prohibition of any community members, apart from admins, to post here.
If a witness wants to post, they can send it to the complainer or an admin to post for them. This is to filter the quality and limit the amount of replies on the topic. I'm not sure why you take what he wrote as welcoming witnesses to post, it was just to clarify to management that there were other people present.
 

cradboard

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Justin. said:
"Well I'm glad we agree here, your RP was breaking the rules. You, simply, chose not to RP fear as a gun was pressed against your neck."

As i stated in my original post, RP is not always what you would regard as normal, but also considering the remote possibilities of an alternative reaction. PG would be regarded as something which could not be humanly possible. Since this was your justification for my excessive ban, do YOU personally believe that what I did was IMPOSSIBLE, are you telling me that the probability of this happening is 0?

I feel the need to respond to this single quote, I'm just letting Jetty deal with this complaint when he does. I answered your questions and you just question the responses, I would just be repeating myself...

Anyways, if you wish to look up in the rules, under powergaming, this is what you would find:

Powergaming can be defined as two things. One of them is forcing actions upon a player, the other is doing superhuman and unrealistic actions.
And
Red County Roleplay administrators will punish you if they deem your actions unrealistic, supernatural, or unfair towards another party. This includes but is not limited to:
This
Not roleplaying fear. - Showing a lack of emotions in situations were people would normally be very frightened.

Regardless of what you think is capable of your character, an untrained CHC member, I would say that normally and certain your character would not be able to ignore the fact of a gun being place against his neck and attempt to use fast reflexes to remove that gun just after a serious car accident.
 

Justin

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Despite our clearly differing opinions, which still remains up to this point, I'm deciding to drop the complaint as I'd like to think we're on rather good terms now.
 

Jboi

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If you're complaining on an admin solely because you aren't on good terms, you really gotta rethink before you post. L&A'd at any rate.
 
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